Tina Turner, Magnetic Singer of Explosive Power, Dies at 83 (2023)

Hey, all you listeners who keep editing out there. Will you help me and Wesley settle a little bet this summer? Do you know the song "Before I Let Go" by Frankie Beverly and Maze?

Ok, when did you first hear it? Do you just stop being who you are - drop your tray of food when a restaurant is open and just go out dancing somewhere? What does the song mean to you?

And even if you've never heard of it, we want to know. Record a short voice note with your relationship to the song "Before I Let Go" and send it to us. Our email is stillprocessing@nytimes.com.

And follow along.

Yes, we will explain that later. But now for the show.

So Jenna, it's 1988. We're in Rio de Janeiro with the one and only, Tina Turner.

God, I'm already so happy. [laughs]

He rocks this crowd. This concert set a record, didn't it? That's 182,000 people, which is the highest 182,000 people have ever paid to see a solo show.

Wow.

This tour had 230 dates in 25 countries.

I can't believe Ms. Tina worked so hard.

230 dates!

Fantastic.

Okay, the hair is huge, right?

And.

It blows.

Oh! Yes.

And it has this leeway -

Leather fringes of course.

And of course it's a mini dress. Let's just say he's already sweating. This concert lasts 11 minutes.

Well, what we also see though is someone who is just in his element.

And she looks as fit and healthy and as alive as I've ever seen her. How old are they here?

48 years old.

And!

Just kick the mic. This is the breakdown. This is Jenna's favorite part of the song, though -

Is it a bridge?

It's a meltdown. It's a meltdown.

But wait, is that a bridge? Treasure -

No.

Oh okay.

No, this is the breakdown.

OKAY OKAY. Tina Turner is someone I regret never seeing live.

Yeah, I mean, just to be one of those people screaming Tina Turner's name?

Oh.

Well, we have a chance to call her name again. There's this HBO documentary about her life called "Tina." It's on HBO, HBO Max. It is directed by Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Swallow. And that's basically the story of her life from her childhood to her glorious 80, 81 year old self. And today you and I want to use the opportunity of this documentary to talk about Tina Turner, not just as a story, but as a musician, as a performer, as an experience.

I'm Jenna Wortham.

I'm Wesley Morris. We're two culture writers at the New York Times, and we love Tina Turner.

[LAUGHTER] And it's still a work in progress.

I'm someone who, my biggest reference point for Tina Turner, for better or for worse, is the 1993 movie "What's Love Got to Do With It" starring Angela Bassett.

Of course, that's a lot of people.

And of course "What's Love Got to Do With It" is a biopic about Tina Turner's life and her relationship with Ike and then her journey on her own journey. And I mean, that's great. I watched it again after watching the documentary. And it made me realize, however, that as incredible as this movie is, it's not enough for the story of her life. It is so painful to watch. It doesn't lean enough into how much it shaped and changed the music.

That's right, and people who know Tina Turner through the movie "What's Love Got to Do With It" know this story of a woman who overcame an abusive marriage to an abusive husband. But this was not a story the women told about their lives. It was something they kept secret. It was something they should be ashamed to have survived. But in the culture there were many stories of domestic violence. These narratives were in the culture. It was the TV movie of the week. But so few of these stories involved a woman triumphing over this dynamic of abuse.

And this documentary is kind of—it kind of claims to free her from that narrative. But for this documentary to do that, it has to take you back to all that pain and trauma. I mean, until this HBO Max movie, the most important Tina Turner document is the book "I, Tina" from 1986. And I mean, I would describe it as basically an oral history of Tina Turner's life as interpreted by Kurt Loder, there , Jenna, I know you remember from MTV News.

And.

This is the story of how he got rid of Ike. And what you learned from this documentary is that he believed that by writing this book he could put it to rest. I think there is something about that particular relationship and its dynamic that is very difficult for Tina Turner to break free of.

I also wonder if the cultural narratives surrounding domestic violence were satanic, right? As a very reductive approach to it. And I guess the way the interviewers address Tina. She is asked again and again why didn't you leave him?

Yes, that's a good point.

Ike checked the money. He checked where he was. He kept an eye on her. The media hunts Tina for her "participation". One of the weirdest things about the documentary is that it's almost entirely an indictment of the media and the ways people don't let Tina get over Ike.

Correct.

And it's also really incredible. I found this comment incredible for how damaging it was for Tina to relive this relationship. But the documentary is also about reliving the relationship. It keeps popping up.

And he also controlled the music. And to be fair to him, he is an architect of American rock and roll. He invested heavily in the R&B and blues side of things. But when it came to working with Tina, she also had to work in that style. And what Tina could do as a singer was ultimately limited by what Ike as a musician could imagine singing. It was the music he wanted to make, not the music she necessarily wanted to make.

But you watch the old Ike and Tina shows and you don't even notice him. He is the face that draws you in front of the stage.

I thought about this, the scene that represents this bubble of liberation for her. The only time - Ike is not going to hit her on stage. He doesn't deal with money that way. But you can see it when he takes the stage - and he has written about it. I mean, sometimes she came on stage sick, weak, sick, still bloody, still black-eyed.

He had tuberculosis for eight years!

And we're talking about someone going from one field to another, right? Working in a cotton field until you work in the damn tent, you know.

Yes, Tina is from Nutbush, Tennessee. Her family dealt with rations, more or less.

But he still had to choose cotton.

Yes, she picked cotton herself many times.

But my point really is that this is the one time he has freedom because he can't say shit. He can't do anything while he's out there. And there is a part in the documentary where he speaks to the crowd. And it's like -

— it's time for men to stop driving things. Men will do what they want.

And you know what, ladies?

In the background, Ike is just playing, right? Now he must be submissive. He has to keep playing. He will talk as much as he wants. And it's a small thing, but it's actually a big thing in a way. You know what I mean? There she was simply free, as free as she could be at the time.

So right, you talk about him talking to the ladies in the audience, so it reminds me of this moment from their live album from 1971. They do a cover of Otis Redding's 'I've Been Loving You'. And in the middle of the fog, he starts talking about some other things that ladies need to be aware of.

Oh

You know, things he maybe couldn't or shouldn't do better.

Wow. Mrs. Turner if you're ugly.

[griner]

Tina!

I love this moment because she finally gives herself an orgasm. He's somewhere else on stage, just playing his guitar.

Correct.

But that's somewhere else. This is her moment. Every time she does it, she gives herself this extraordinary pleasure.

And it was a pleasure that was somewhat foreign to her at home. And while she was with Ike, he pushed her to sing his music even when she didn't like it. And her voice, that voice knew so much more than Ike's brand of R&B and blues.

Correct.

But she had these moments of revelation about what else she could do with her singing. And the first of those happens in 1966 when they make this deal to do a song with Phil Spector that he had seen her and Ike perform. And it's like I'm going to make a record with her. And he does. Ike allows her to make the record. But Phil Spector, crazy as he is and he turns out to be a psychopath, didn't want Ike in the studio at all -

Wow.

- to make this record. And that's "River Deep, Mountain High," one of Phil Spector's masterpieces, one of Tina Turner's great singing achievements. And in the documentary she talks about it being this revelation for her.

Because she just didn't know she could sing in other ways but scream like Ike wanted her to.

And here it has a melody. She is so good at it. There is a lot of music in the song. I think it was three guitarists and three drummers and three bass players and all these strings and all these other singers. And he has to climb all the way over these people -

Wow.

- to be heard. And he does, and he doesn't have to scream the whole song to do it. And he can't believe he made it all the way up there.

I love this song so much. I still think -

Perfect song!

— It sounds like he really believes in what he sings in a different way. Something else has access to this song and I don't know what it is. I don't know what he's thinking. I don't know who she imagines she loves like this rag doll.

Well, she found Phil Spector pretty weird, but she also liked his belief in what else she could do as a singer. And you can hear it in the song.

The music itself is truly reverent. It is very sacred. It's like a different choir. You know what I mean? It has this -

It is heavenly.

Yes, it is heavenly. That's a really nice way of saying it. It's heavenly. And it lifts her up, and she feels in this moment that she is bound to her true talent without him around. And maybe it's the first time it's happened in her career.

But in 1964, at a time when the song wasn't doing well in the US, Ike basically won. Gives Ike a win. It was proof to him that the way he approached R&B and blues was the way to go, instead of trying to keep working with that Phil Spector sound. And he was just raging and singing that R&B style, that blues style. But he continued with this for another 10 years.

Mm, wow.

So he was in control of the music, even when she was writing songs. He wrote "Nutbush City Limits," which is one of my favorite Ike and Tina songs. But he continued to do things his own way.

I mean, we're talking about expanding sharecropping. I mean, I think a lot of Tina's story is—

Oh, good point, yes.

- grew up in an abusive home and watched his father abuse his mother. And then her mother leaves. And she grows up with her grandmother. And she grows up feeling very unwanted, unloved. And it makes it really hard to believe or trust yourself until it does. But so much of this story is about just that—about these cycles we inherit and what it takes to get off, I suppose, the merry-go-round.

It's interesting that you put it that way, though, because she's not presenting anything—everything she's feeling inside isn't really evident in the presentation. And I think the issue was that Ike's style had gotten old. They have a huge hit with their cover of 'Proud Mary', the Creedence Clearwater Revival song.

With all due respect to John Fogerty who wrote "Proud Mary", their version of this song is basically the version. And what you hear is her power as a singer. And the way he sang, the grandeur, the emotion, the power was hugely important in creating this whole universe of how white people sing rock and roll.

And it's like talking about Mick Jagger, Janis Joplin, Rod Stewart, all these people who wanted to emulate that power and that feeling. So on one hand she's incredibly influential in American music, but personally she's in this little box that this man keeps her in. I would say that part of what this relationship with Ike cost her artistically was the freedom to to do what she wanted and miss out on all these cultural things that were going on, right?

Disco took place in the latter stages of their partnership, right? The disco started happening. And I'm not saying he wanted to go to the disco. I can definitely tell you that he wanted to do rock and roll, which at the time was basically what American music was, pretty much. And it was the music that spoke to her. That was the music he wanted to make. And he couldn't really do that with Ike, who was still wedded to this 1950s way of thinking about rock and roll. And she leaves him. And part of his giving up is, of course, giving up the marriage.

He leaves the domestic marriage, what was left of it then. But she also leaves this creative marriage and tries to figure out who she wants to be as an artist and not who this guy wants.

I thought a lot, why rock? And I mean, I've thought about it more from a philosophical point of view. I mean, what does rock represent that didn't represent what it did before? And I think there must have been some fatigue and just resistance to rendering that intimacy, right? If you think about what R&B is, it's about seduction. These are the romantic ballads. They are love songs. And rock songs are also love songs, but they're also about being independent or not being independent. And I think maybe that's what attracted her. Perhaps Tina was attracted to this idea, both in the literal sense of musical independence, but also in the thematic independence. And how would you feel singing those kinds of songs now?

And leaves the marriage. It's very dramatic, I think, in 1976. He comes out physically. And then over the years she manages to get a divorce. But during this time he plays in Vegas. The settings are not good. But she pulls out her tail feathers to sing her own song. And the shows are going well. People come to see her. But finally the Australian manager named Roger Davies sees her. And he is fascinated, as you would be. And they start cooking. And he records "Private Dancer". And this "Private Dancer" album comes out in '84 and it's a huge hit.

"What's Love Got to Do With It" is the first official US single and it's huge. And the song he does on this album is just different from the one he sang with Ike, where when he was part of Ike and Tina, they expected him to cry a lot and scream a lot. And "Private Dancer," the genius of that album is, in a way, it's softer, so when he unleashes it, it doesn't hit you harder than the 70s and 60s stuff, but it just hits you differently . . This album sells 10 million copies worldwide.

Wow.

And that's the beginning of this incredible 1980s for Tina Turner. And this is the decade where she reclaims that voice and finds out what else she can do. So let's look at the things he achieved in this three to four-year period. He won four Grammys in '85.

Technically, one of them was for song of the year. He didn't write this song, but it was about Tina Turner. It wasn't about the guy who wrote the song. She plays Auntie Entity in "Mad Max, Beyond Thunderdome".

Han har to hits fra dette soundtrack, inklusive "We Don't Need Another Hero".

Fantastic.

Playing at Live Aid in my hometown of Philadelphia, the late J.F.K. stadium with Mick Jagger.

She turned down the role of Celie in "The Color Purple".

[GASPS] What?

Yes he did. I lived by this story, he said.

Wow.

And he sells out every single stadium he plays in.

Fantastic.

And that's my favorite little bit of that little bit of Tina Turner. It's on "We Are the World".

Oh God.

So, I mean, to pick it up a little bit more, all of this is happening to this woman who was in her 40s.

I love it.

But you told me something earlier that really struck me. And it was this idea that even when she's singing at the height of her powers at the height of her voice, there's something - something's holding back.

That was my gut feeling when I saw it, and I still sit with it, because there was something tactile about that record of "River Deep" that I've never felt before. And in my mind, I feel like we're seeing a woman who has learned what it means to keep pieces of herself to herself. And I find so much joy in that because it's not an unconscious limitation, right? It was deserved. Tina has just finished making headlines with her personal life. And there seems to be this knowledge, I give you everything I have. But I still keep the most precious parts of Tina for Tina. And it's just - it's so admirable to see.

Jenna.

And.

Remember 'Divas Live'?

About. It has this shadowy place in my memory, like Oprah's "Legends Ball." I always know it's happening and I catch it a little late, like that guard.

Well, VH1 gathered America's greatest living singers to come together for a night they called "VH1 Divas Live." And in the second part, the first performer was none other than Tina Turner.

Oh, so cool.

And the opening shot of the entire evening is this limousine pulling up. The first thing you see is Tina Turner's legs. It's just a pair of legs stepping out of that limo and walking down the red carpet.

But goes the way Tina goes with a little cheer.

Yes, it's 1999. Tina Turner is in her 60s, or almost 60. And her hair is shorter. It's more blonde.

More bangs, which is great. She is truly iconic Tina. This is one of my favorite hairstyles.

You can hear the engine of her song "The Best". The room goes crazy because they know what's about to happen.

(SONGS) Wild and wild.

Yes. [laughs]

Oh, I love this move! The move where she just starts walking across the stage, but then stops every time she puts her foot down and just like…

It's a bit of a stretch.

Yes, there is something about the kinetic energy that she has always had in her dance moves that is so unique to her. There is so much energy that just wants to come out of her.

There is always so much energy coming out of her! It's a whirlwind! He is a gale in body and voice.

He finishes the song and kneels.

He kneels.

And he is simply drenched in admiration.

Because he is very grateful. It just soaks it in. It's not that she's full of ego. It's more like self-respect and respect for space. And it's just not - it's such an honor to be there. And to be grateful that her life is as rich as it is, it's a lesson—I mean, again, it's just a lesson in self-preservation and a lesson in what it means to know your worth.

She is so happy to be wherever she is when she is playing. That's what I love most about watching Tina Turner. And at this point you and I have been talking about her as a musician, as a singer with a voice, and how she got her voice back, right? She got it back when she got out of that marriage. But she also had to get her image back – her hair and clothes. And the first thing she took back to get to a moment like 1999's "VH1 Divas Live," is her name. Ike Turner made Anna Mae Bullock, Tina Turner. He didn't ask her. He just did. And he modeled her - was Sheena, Queen of the Jungle? And she trademarked her name, which I didn't even know she knew.

Wow.

Best Scene - I mean, I don't know. I think most people would say that the big limo race is the best scene in the movie "What's Love Got To Do With It". But I would say that the big stage for me is the courtroom.

Just give me my name. I mean, but it's more than just being named after her when you consider that it wasn't even her name. You know what I mean?

I know.

It's like -

But he understands the similarity and universal recognition of this name. He wants it.

What is she going to do, go to Vegas and be Anna May Bullock? No, M.F. For whatever this is -

The artist formerly known as -

Correct. I mean, the value this name has is because I gave it value. You don't deserve that name. And it is not just her name that she gets back. It's her look.

And.

I think hair and clothes are a big part of her reinventing herself. And so on until 1984, if you see Tina Turner for the first time in that "What's Love Got to Do With It" video and she's got the new hair -

Oh.

— that fireworks explosion geysers of hair?

And and!

This to me is both a lion's mane and a headdress.

Of.

Correct? It is very similar to the chief's headdress. But she also mentions in "I, Tina" that this long, dark hair connects her to her Cherokee and Navajo roots. Her mother's side of the family is Native American. And this connection, he really feels it. He says he's always felt it. That hair is so important, you know? And she just doesn't think it's funny, because think of all the Tina Turner Halloween costumes you've seen.

I thought that too, how her appearance became a bit of a caricature. But he never made fun of her anyway.

Yeah, you can't fill those shoes. People look ridiculous -

Correct.

— plays Tina Turner. But you can't fill it.

Right, right, right.

The obstacle is not only that you can't tuck the wig and you can't tuck the denim jacket, you can't tuck the leather mini skirt. It's that there's an energy she gives off in those clothes, in that hair, that's so much about confidence and belief in herself as a sexual being.

It also seems like part of her embracing her sexuality is embracing her sensuality, you know? There is something about the way as the love within her grows for herself, you can feel it more. And I think in the excerpts – because you've been sending me excerpts from the book "Jeg, Tina" all week, which has been the highlight of my week, an absolute pleasure – that speaks a little about that. And then he also talks about how he hated what he saw in the mirror. And she somehow assumed that the lack of love in her relationship with Ike was due to some flaw in her, rather than a function of, well, their own illnesses. And it's really incredible to see her go through this transformation that you're talking about — to see her embrace the parts of herself that she loves the most, to see her love her legs, to love her heritage, to love her hair and her face . And she didn't have the same Madonna or Cher-esque approach to adornment that hid her face. Many musicians and celebrities at this level play so much with their image. And they like to play with different looks and different personalities. And it's not Tina - it's not Tina's thing. Tina wants to amplify what's there, which I really see as an act of self-love.

Yes, confidence too, right?

And confidence, yes.

I don't have to be 20 different people. I just have to be.

It took me so long to be me and I will be me as long as I can. It also seems that for Tina, the big changes we see in her music—her looks, her hair, her personality, her life—actually start from within her at this point in the late 70s. , where he meets Buddhism. And then, of course, I read parts of her book, Happiness Becomes You, in researching the show, where she talks about how she applied the principles of Buddhism to her life, which essentially makes her a dharma teacher, someone who conveys the principles of modern life to make it accessible to other people. I mean, to me, it's pretty amazing. But one thing she writes about in the book is that it was actually mentioned to her by a sound engineer. You know, Tina, have you ever thought about singing? It's the height of the abuse, the height of it, just—I guess, the height of her depression, where she feels really trapped and unsure of how to move forward with her life. And she is able to regain her sanity. Because when you're in an abusive dynamic, you can't trust yourself.

Yeah, I think I was really impressed with "What's Love Got to Do With It" when he discovered Buddhism. And I remember seeing it at the Cheltenham Mall in Philadelphia with a bunch of probably non-Buddhist Christians.

And there was something about repeating that mantra over and over. And it takes on a sort of tongue-in-cheek quality for anyone familiar with Pentecostalism.

There is a way in which her chanting is - it empowers her and makes her stronger. And it felt to the audience at the time alien to a lot of people who saw it. But I also think once it became clear what it brought her and what it allowed her to do, it was pretty clear that we're just talking about God. And it was powerful to see her embrace spirituality to get her out of this marriage.

I think people don't know what to do with spirituality, they don't understand. And I really love how by all means and means Tina talks about how she was transformed from the inside out and how it allowed her to start making these bigger changes in her life. The first stage of liberation for her is to leave Ike. And then the second level of this liberation learns that it is enough. I mean, it's actually a very deep moment where she's like looking in the mirror. How can anyone not love the woman that I am? And it's really touching.

And I think a lot of women, and especially black women, relate to that feeling of growing up in a culture that tells you that you're not beautiful enough and that the natural texture of your hair is not enough , and that the color of your skin is not enough. And it's like when Beyonce says I can never be perfect enough to feel worthless like that. You understand that women struggle with these demons despite the outward appearance of success. They still struggle with feeling valued and loved. And it makes me feel more sane to know that I'm not the only one having these thoughts—that these incredibly famous, beautiful, brilliant women are having these thoughts too, you know? But one of the things about Tina is that singing helps her achieve the peace within herself that allows her to be open and love.

Well, it's interesting that you see it as this black woman trying to love herself. Because part of the disconnect, I think, in 1993 in the movies was that you saw this black woman who grew up in the church suddenly discover her true power through some non-Christian religion. And I think that, for me, is also indicative of Tina Turner's relationship with black culture. And how when I was a kid when Tina exploded when "Private Dancer" came out, it was really interesting that in Philadelphia, the big black pop music station where all the jams were, they didn't play "What's Love Gotta I" I do. "

It is interesting.

You didn't hear "Better Be Good to Me" on Power 99, WUSO. There's always been this tension about who we're embracing right now. And I feel like Black America's embrace of Tina, to me, is retrograde in a way. But I think there's something about Buddhism that just - made it seem even more alien, in a way, than kindred.

Yes, there is this undercurrent of tension around Tina Turner's relationship with her blackness and whether or not she is accepted by black people whether or not she rejects black culture. And I think about the judgment and criticism of how black women, especially when they're famous, live their lives and whether they're black enough or not. You saw it with - we're talking about it with Whitney Houston. There's this inherent cruelty when you don't conform, right? Or when you do things, you march to the beat of your own drummer, it's like there's this really interesting reaction that's based on fear of criticism and shame as inadequate.

I mean, you go through that ring of authenticity. I also think she's someone who always understood who she was. There's this passage in "I, Tina" where he talks about going to Europe when "River Deep, Mountain High" is a hit over there—a bigger hit there than it was here. And he talks about how good he is in France. And he says don't get me wrong, I'm black. No one's hair is paler than mine. But I also feel like I've been here and I'm like that - maybe it's my mixed blood. Maybe it worked for all the white people in Tennessee over the years. Maybe he's been going to the black church all that time. But I am a person who kind of exists beyond black and white. I am one who exists as myself. And it is beyond culture. It literally says, I think I was Catholic. And I must say that I think so. Do you see her on those tracks, Jenna?

No, he is absolutely at home. And I think we also forget that what we all imagine are the most transformative, exciting, formative years of your life—your teenage years, your 20s, and your 30s—are tied up in this abusive work relationship. And then it's just so incredible to hear about the freedom and liberation she experiences in her 40s and 50s.

But there are still mountain peaks. There are still achievements left for this woman. And one of them is being re-inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Boom, boom, boom! Yes, it will happen!

Yes definitely.

This must happen. This should be done this year.

He is with Ike Turner. They are there like Ike and Tina. He is now on the ballot for induction as a solo artist. And I will tell you that the competition is fierce. It's like Tina Turner, Jay-Z, Mary J. Blige, Todd Rundgren - hello Philadelphia - Kate Bush -

Wow.

- one of my heroes. I mean, L.L. Cool J, Chaka Khan, Dionne Warwick.

Oh God.

And Jenna, although she doesn't realize it, I was just on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame fan's introduction page. And I'm looking at this ranking. And in fifth place out of the five slots that fans want the most, fifth place, Foo Fighters. Fourth place, Iron Maiden. Third place, The Go-Go's. Number two, Fela F-ing Kuti. Fela Kuti!

Wow.

But number one, by a not inconsiderable margin over Fela Kuti -

Oh God!

— the one and only Tina Turner.

Soft!

So even if people voting for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame don't want Tina Turner this year -

People do!

- the people do. The people do. So the Rock Hall voters -

Do the right thing.

- You all know what to do. You better be nice to her. Be good to her.

And this is our show! Still Processing is produced at The New York Times by Elyssa Dudley and Mahima Chablani.

This week we have an extra special gluten-free, nut-free vegan treat. We've put together a playlist of Wesley's favorite Tina Turner songs for you. It can be found at nytimes.com/stillprocessing. Our editors are Sarasahn and Sasha Weiss.

Marion Lozano mixes the show.

Click Download to save Mahima Chablani - Des Ibekwe mp3 youtube com

Special thanks to Lisa Tobin and Wendy Dorr.

Our theme music is by Kindness. It's called "World Restart" from the album "Otherness".

Just keep your fingers crossed that Dame Tina gets her Rock and Roll Hall of Fame certification again.

See you next week.